AS SOON AS THERE IS
MAYAVADI ATTACK
 
So as soon as there is Mayavadi attack,
you must immediately defeat them. That is wanted.
 
So you should not be simply chanting and dancing. Along with, you must know philosophy. There are so many Mayavadis; you have to defeat them. It is not that we are cowards. We are Krsna's soldiers. So as soon as there is Mayavadi attack, you must immediately defeat them. That is wanted. Therefore so many books are being written.
 
[Srimad-Bhagavatam Lecture, 2.3.20, Los Angeles, June 16, 1972]

 
 
Dear Prabhu's please accept my humble obeisance's.
 
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
 
Very recently there has being an attack on His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a fundamental principle of the Vaisnava philosophy namely the constitutional position of the living entity.
 
This attack has come in the form of a paper named "THE FINAL PROOF: THE JIVA DID NOT FALL FROM GOLOKA" This offensive paper is a transcript of a lecture given by the Mayavadi interpreter Narayana Maharaja.
 
So following the above order of Srila Prabhupada i have compiled this paper.
 
Your servant Mukunda dasa.
 
 
CONTENTS
 
 
1. Mayavadi word jugglery.
 
2. Mukhya-vrtti ("the direct meaning")
    Gauna-vrtti ("the indirect meaning")
 
3. Forgotten Krsna, we fallen souls.
 
4. The constitutional position of the living entity.
 
5. Tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord.
 
6. Independence and Falldown.
 
7. If he desires, he can come again. That option is always there.
 
==============================================
 
 
1. Mayavadi word jugglery.
 
The following is taken from the offensive Mayavadi paper by Narayana Maharaja:
 
jivera 'svarupa' haya - krsnera 'nitya-dasa'
krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'
suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya
svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

"It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy." (Cc Madhya 20.108-109)

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha
ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

"Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)

[Narayana Maharaja]: We are eternally Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we are Krsna bhuli; we have forgotten Him. The words 'krsna bhuli' are used here. It means 'the jiva forgets Krsna', but what does this actually mean? It seems to mean that the jiva was once engaged in Krsna's service, but now he has forgotten that service. Actually, this is not true. This is not the meaning. There is defect in worldly languages. They are not perfect, and therefore they cannot purely express what is the nature of our svarupa (constitutional form). To clarify the meaning of 'krsna bhuli', Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes in the next line, "krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa.'" ....They are all liberated. They don't know what is maya and what is this material world. Who knows? We know. We have come from tatastha-sakti, from a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu called Karanabdisayi Visnu, who is situated on the marginal line, in the Karanabdhi (Causal Ocean). The jivas are not coming to this world from Goloka Vrndavana, nor are they coming from Vaikuntha. They are coming form the marginal line, from the glance of Karanabdhisayi Visnu. Among them, those who look towards Vaikuntha are liberated, and they go there at once without delay. Conversely, those who look toward this world will come here....Don't conclude that the jivas have come from Goloka. Although Srila Swami Maharaja never said that the jivas fell from Goloka, some of his disciples try to prove that he has said the opposite. But I know the truth. He has told me, and it is also in sastra. Srimati Syamarani dasi has collected so many of Srila Swami Maharaja words, confirming that he never accepted that the jivas came from Goloka Vrndavana.
 
na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6)
 
[Narayana Maharaja]: Goloka is such a dhama that there is no maya. Rather, only Yogamaya is there. A person who is seriously chanting, remembering and following, passes through the stages of sraddha, nistha, ruci, asakti, and prema, after a long, long, long time. If he has gone to Goloka Vrndavana Dhama and is serving Krsna, there is no chance at all to fall down. There is no example at all in the Vedas, Upanisads, or any other scriptures....
It would be quite absurd to think that liberated souls in Goloka Vrndavana can ever be covered by maya. You should have strong faith that the jivas did not fall from there. They have come from the marginal point. They have come from Karanabdhisayi Visnu and from tatastha-sakti. Jiva himself is tatastha-sakti.
 
[Gokula dasa:] Actually, within ISKCON there was two or three.[Letters about originally being with Krishna]

[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.

2. Mukhya-vrtti ("the direct meaning")

    Gauna-vrtti ("the indirect meaning")
 

In this section we will see very clearly that Narayana Maharaja has describe the words 'krsna bhuli' from Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya Lila verse 20.117 in terms of indirect meaning.

 

2. Mukhya-vrtti ("the direct meaning")

    Gauna-vrtti ("the indirect meaning")
 
In this section we will see very clearly that Narayana Maharaja has describe the words 'krsna bhuli' from Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya Lila verse 20.117 in terms of indirect meaning.
 
 Upon this, the Lord spoke as follows: "My dear sir, I can understand the meaning of the sutras like janmady asya yatah, sastra-yonitvat, and athato brahma jijnasa of the Vedanta-sutra, but when you explain them in your own way it becomes difficult for Me to follow them. The purpose of the sutras is already explained in them, but your explanations are covering them with something else. You do not purposely take the direct meaning of the sutras but indirectly give your own interpretations."
   The Lord thus attacked all Vedantists who interpret the Vedanta-sutra fashionably, according to their limited power of thinking, to serve their own purpose. Such indirect interpretations of the authentic literatures like the Vedanta-sutra are hereby condemned by the Lord
.
   The Lord continued: "Srila Vyasadeva has summarized the direct meanings of the mantras in the Upanisads in the Vedanta-sutra. Unfortunately you do not take their direct meaning. You indirectly interpret them in a different way.
 
[S.B. Intro]
 
Note: Narayana Maharaja at first accepts the direct meaning of the words 'krsna bhuli':
 
[Narayana Maharaja]: We are eternally Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we are Krsna bhuli; we have forgotten Him. The words 'krsna bhuli' are used here. It means 'the jiva forgets Krsna',
 
Note: He then proceeds to give his indirect interpretation:
 
[Narayana Maharaja]: but what does this actually mean? It seems to mean that the jiva was once engaged in Krsna's service, but now he has forgotten that service. Actually, this is not true. This is not the meaning. There is defect in worldly languages. They are not perfect, and therefore they cannot purely express what is the nature of our svarupa (constitutional form). To clarify the meaning of 'krsna bhuli', Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes in the next line, "krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa.'"
 
Note: Such indirect interpretations of the authentic literatures like Caitanya-caritamrta is condemned by the Lord. Narayana Maharaja then makes the great offense of saying the Lords words are worldly or more clearly material and that the Lord is not able to express purely the nature of our svarupa (constitutional form). This is very nicely refuted as follows:
 
Yogesvara: For them the word nirvana means an end but an end to this material existence and an entrance into the silence of the Absolute, onto a level that is real, whereas this one is false. This one is rejected.
Prabhupada: Why silence?
Yogesvara: He says the term "entering into silence" is a mystic term that means...
Prabhupada: He cannot explain. (break)
Yogesvara: ...it is undescribable because it's something that's arrived at inside through meditation. You can't really describe it in words?
Prabhupada: Why? You are describing so many thing in words and the ultimate goal you cannot describe.
Yogesvara: He says that many great masters like you from the East tend to smile at their explanations, but he...
Guru Gauranga: They tend to smile when this question is asked, "Who am I?" So what can I say compared to these masters?
Prabhupada: That means his knowledge is not perfect.
Guru Gauranga: His knowledge is not perfect, and like us, he is simply trying for perfect knowledge.
Prabhupada: So unless you have got your goal perfectly known, how you can make progress?
 
[S.P. Room Conversation, with Rosicrucians, August 13, 1973, Paris]


Note: The nature of our svarupa is very clearly described by Srila Prabhupada (See the section The constitutional position of the living entity)
 
Narayana Maharaja then finally becomes ludicrous and says "krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa.'"  is the next line of 'krsna bhuli', when factually it is from a completely different sloka!!!

 
TRANSLATION: "Sripada Sankaracarya has described all the Vedic literatures in terms of indirect meanings. One who hears such explanations is ruined. Sankaracarya is not at fault, for he has thus covered the real purpose of the Vedas under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
 
PURPORT: The Vedic literature is to be considered a source of real knowledge, but if one does not take it as it is, one will be misled. For example, the Bhagavad-gita is an important book of Vedic literature that has been taught for many years, but because it was commented upon by unscrupulous rascals, people derived no benefit from it, and no one came to the conclusion of Krsna consciousness. Since the purpose of the Bhagavad-gita is now being presented as it is, however, within four or five short years thousands of people all over the world have become Krsna conscious. That is the difference between direct and indirect explanations of the Vedic literature. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, mukhya-vrttye sei artha parama mahattva: "To teach the Vedic literature according to its direct meaning, without false commentary, is glorious." Unfortunately, Sri Sankaracarya, by the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, compromised between atheism and theism in order to cheat the atheists and bring them to theism, and to do so he gave up the direct method of Vedic knowledge and tried to present a meaning which is indirect. It is with this purpose that he wrote his Sariraka-bhasya commentary on the Vedanta-sutra.......
   Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments that mukhya-vrtti ("the direct meaning") is abhidha-vrtti, or the meaning that one can understand immediately from the statements of dictionaries, whereas gauna-vrtti ("the indirect meaning") is a meaning that one imagines without consulting the dictionary. For example, one politician has said that Kuruksetra refers to the body, but in the dictionary there is no such definition. Therefore this imaginary meaning is gauna-vrtti, whereas the direct meaning found in the dictionary is mukhya-vrtti or abhidha-vrtti. This is the distinction between the two. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that one understand the Vedic literature in terms of abhidha-vrtti, and the gauna-vrtti He rejects. Sometimes, however, as a matter of necessity, the Vedic literature is described in terms of the laksana-vrtti or gauna-vrtti, but one should not accept such explanations as permanent truths.
   The purpose of the discussions in the Upanisads and Vedanta-sutra is to philosophically establish the personal feature of the Absolute Truth. The impersonalists, however, in order to establish their philosophy, accept these discussions in terms of laksana-vrtti, or indirect meanings.
 
[Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.109-110]
 
Note: Narayana Maharaja has described Srila Prabhupada's books in terms of indirect meanings. One who hears such explanations is ruined. Srila Prabhupada's books are to be considered a source of real knowledge, but if one does not take it as it is, one will be misled. Narayana Maharaja gave up the direct method of Vedic knowledge and tried to present a meaning which is indirect. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments that mukhya-vrtti ("the direct meaning") is abhidha-vrtti, or the meaning that one can understand immediately from the statements of dictionaries, whereas gauna-vrtti ("the indirect meaning") is a meaning that one imagines without consulting the dictionary. For example, one politician has said that Kuruksetra refers to the body, but in the dictionary there is no such definition. Therefore this imaginary meaning is gauna-vrtti, whereas the direct meaning found in the dictionary is mukhya-vrtti or abhidha-vrtti. This is the distinction between the two. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that one understand the Vedic literature in terms of abhidha-vrtti, (Srila Prabhupada's direct purports) and the gauna-vrtti (the interpretations of Narayana Maharaja) He rejects. The impersonalists, (Narayana Maharaja and his followers) however, in order to establish their philosophy, accept these discussions in terms of laksana-vrtti, or indirect meanings.
 
 
TRANSLATION: "You do not explain the direct meaning of the Brahma-sutras. Indeed, it appears that your business is to cover their real meaning."
 
PURPORT: This is typical of all Mayavadis or atheists who interpret the meaning of Vedic literature in their own imaginative way. The real purpose of such foolish people is to impose the impersonalist conclusion on all Vedic literature. The Mayavadi atheists also interpret the Bhagavad-gita. In every verse of Srimad Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In every verse Vyasadeva says, sri-bhagavan uvaca, "the Supreme Personality of Godhead said," or "the Blessed Lord said." It is clearly stated that the Blessed Lord is the Supreme Person, but Mayavadi atheists still try to prove that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. In order to present their false, imaginary meanings, they must adopt so much word jugglery and grammatical interpretation that they finally become ludicrous. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu remarked that no one should hear the Mayavadi commentaries or purports to any Vedic literature.
 
[Caitanya-caritamrta Mad. 6.132]
 
Note: Narayana Maharaja does not explain the direct meaning of Vedic literature like Srila Prabhupada's books. Indeed, it appears that his business is to cover their real meaning. This is typical of all Mayavadis or atheists who interpret the meaning of Vedic literature in their own imaginative way. The real purpose of such foolish people is to impose the impersonalist conclusion on all Vedic literature. In order to present their false, imaginary meanings, they must adopt so much word jugglery and grammatical interpretation that they finally become ludicrous. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu remarked that no one should hear the Mayavadi commentaries or purports such as those by Narayana Maharaja, to any Vedic literature.
 
 
TRANSLATION "For each sutra the direct meaning must be accepted without interpretation. However, you simply abandon the direct meaning and proceed with your imaginative interpretation... Although there is other evidence, the evidence given in the Vedic version must be taken as foremost. Vedic versions understood directly are first-class evidence."
 
PURPORT: Works that should be consulted are Srila Jiva Gosvami's Tattva-sandarbha (10-11), Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana's commentary on that, and the following verses of the Brahma-sutra: sastra-yonitvat (1.1.3), tarkapratisthanat (2.1.11) and srutes tu sabda-mulatvat (2.1.27), as commented upon by Sri Ramanujacarya, Sri Madhvacarya, Sri Nimbarkacarya and Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana. In his book Sarva-samvadini, Srila Jiva Gosvami has noted that although there are ten kinds of evidence--direct perception, the Vedic version, historical reference, hypothesis, and so on--and although they are all generally accepted as evidence, the person presenting a hypothesis, reading the Vedic version, perceiving or interpreting by his experience is certain to be imperfect in four ways. That is, he is subject to commiting mistakes, to becoming illusioned, to cheating and to having imperfect senses. Although the evidence may be correct, the person himself is in danger of being misled due to his material defects. Apart from the direct presentation, there is a chance that an interpretation may not be perfect. Therefore the conclusion is that only a direct presentation can be considered evidence. An interpretation cannot be accepted as evidence, but may be considered proof of evidence.
   In the Bhagavad-gita, at the very beginning it is stated:
 
                        dhrtarastra uvaca
                    dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre
                       samaveta yuyutsavah
                      mamakah pandavas caiva
                       kim akurvata sanjaya
 
   The statements of the Bhagavad-gita are themselves proof that there is a place of religious pilgrimage named Kuruksetra where the Pandavas and Kurus met to fight. After meeting there, what did they do? This was Dhrtarastra's inquiry to Sanjaya. Although these statements are very clear, atheists try to interpret different meanings of the words dharma-ksetra and kuru-ksetra. Therefore Srila Jiva Gosvami has warned us not to depend on any kind of interpretation. It is better to take the verses as they are, without interpretation.
 
[Caitanya-caritamrta Mad. 6.134-35]
 
Note: For each sutra the direct meaning must be accepted without interpretation. However, Narayana Maharaja simply abandons the direct meaning and proceeds with his imaginative interpretation.. Therefore the conclusion is that only a direct presentation can be considered evidence. An interpretation cannot be accepted as evidence, but may be considered proof of evidence. Although the statements "krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha - Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial" are very clear, atheists like Narayana Maharaja try to interpret different meanings of the words krsna bhuli. Therefore Srila Jiva Gosvami has warned us not to depend on any kind of interpretation. It is better to take the verses as they are, without interpretation.
 
* Another very important point in regards to evidence. You may recall the very offensive statement:
 
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.
 
 
Note: Here is one of those letters:
 
Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

   We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
   Our separation from Krsna is like that
. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
   We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
   So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
   So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
   Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
   On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
   Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
   Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.
 
[S.P. Letter to: Unknown, Unknown Place, Unknown Date]

Note: Only a direct presentation can be considered evidence, therefore Narayana Maharaja's interpretation of the words 'krsna bhuli' cannot be accepted as evidence, as they are indirect and oppose the principles of scripture.
 
To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, "Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principles of scripture. [Caitanya-caritamrta Adi. 2.73]
 
Note: We have to take the mukhya-vrtti ("the direct meaning"), or the meaning that one can understand immediately from the statements of dictionaries. The direct meaning of the words krsna bhuli' is forgetting Krsna.
 
Therefore Srila Prabhupada's statements in the above letter, namely: [We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.... . Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.... We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport.] are identical to the direct statement of the Lord in Caitanya-caritamrta "krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)
 
The statement "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport." is also identical to the direct statement of the Lord in Caitanya-caritamrta  "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord" (Cc Madhya 20.108-109)
 
Therefore Srila Prabhupada's letters are DIRECT EVIDENCE and Narayana Maharaja's statements are extremely offensive!!!

 
3. Forgotten Krsna, we fallen souls.

In this section are quotes about forgetting Krsna, i have only presented a few as there are too many to mention at this time.
 
 
So Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura knew this art, how to turn our activities for the satisfaction of Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore I... "Wonder thy ways to turn our face, adore they feet, Your Divine Grace. Forgotten Krsna, we fallen souls." Why we are fallen? Because we have forgotten. Our relationship with Krsna is eternal. Unless it was eternal, how you Western peoples could be devotee of Krsna? Artificially you cannot be a devotee of Krsna. The relationship is there eternally. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti. By the process it is now awakened. Sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. It is awakened. Love between young man and young (wo)man, it is not artificial. It is there. But by certain circumstantially, environment, the love becomes manifest. Similarly, our love for Krsna, relationship with Krsna, is eternal. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna-dasa. But we have to create such situation--that eternal relation should be awakened. That is the art. That is wanted.
 
[His Divine Grace, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada's, Disappearance Day, Lecture, Hyderabad, December 10, 1976]
 
 
TRANSLATION: "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.
 
PURPORT: When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Krsna, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory, external energy. The living entity is originally part and parcel of Krsna and is therefore the superior energy of Krsna. He is endowed with inconceivable minute energy that works inconceivably within the body. However, the living entity, forgetting his position, is situated in material energy. The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. He is sometimes attracted by the external illusory energy when he stays in the marginal position, and this is the beginning of his material life. When he enters the material energy, he is subjected to the threefold time measurement--past, present and future. Past, present and future belong only to the material world; they do not exist in the spiritual world. The living entity is eternal, and he existed before the creation of this material world. Unfortunately he has forgotten his relationship with Krsna. The living entity's forgetfulness is described herein as anadi, which indicates that it has existed since time immemorial. One should understand that due to his desire to enjoy himself in competition with Krsna, the living entity comes into material existence.
 
[C.C. Mad. 20.117]
 
 
The svarupa, or actual identification of the living entity, is described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as jivera 'svarupa' haya-krsnera 'nitya-dasa'. The conditioned soul has forgotten the real activities of his original position. However, this is not the case with Krsna. Krsna's name and His person are identical.
 
[C.C. Mad. 17.132]
 
 
Therefore Bhagavad-gita is best understood by a person who has qualities similar to Arjuna's. That is to say he must be a devotee in a direct relationship with the Lord. That is a very elaborate subject matter, but briefly it can be stated that a devotee is in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways:
                                
     1. One may be a devotee in a passive state;
     2. One may be a devotee in an active state;
     3. One may be a devotee as a friend;
     4. One may be a devotee as a parent;
     5. One may be a devotee as a conjugal lover.
 
   Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.
 
[B.G. Intro]
 
 
Because Caitanya Mahaprabhu says: jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. Every living entity is eternal servant of Krsna. When he forgets Krsna he becomes servant of maya. That is our position. We have to serve. Therefore self-realization means to understand oneself that "I am dependent on Krsna. I am eternal servant of Krsna, let me engage myself to the service of the Lord." That is perfection of knowledge. Thank you very much.
 
[Bhagavad-gita Lecture, 13.3, Paris, August 11, 1973]
 
 
When a man in the material world takes more interest in the materialistic way of life than in Krsna consciousness, he is considered to be in a diseased condition. The normal condition is to remain an eternal servant of the Lord (jivera 'svarupa' haya--krsnera 'nitya-dasa'). This healthy condition is lost when the living entity forgets Krsna due to being attracted by the external features of Krsna's maya energy.
 
[NOI 7]
 

 
 
4. The constitutional position of the living entity.
 
 
If the mind is purified by Krsna consciousness, one will naturally in the future get a body that is spiritual and full of Krsna consciousness. Such a body is our original form, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu confirms, jivera 'svarupa' haya--krsnera 'nitya-dasa': "Every living entity is constitutionally an eternal servant of Krsna."
 
[Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.65]
 
 
The rasas are exchanged between members of the same species. But as far as the spirit souls are concerned, they are one qualitatively with the Supreme Lord. Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The spiritual exchange or rasa is fully exhibited in spiritual existence between living beings and the Supreme Lord.
   The Supreme Personality of Godhead is therefore described in the sruti-mantras, Vedic hymns, as "the fountainhead of all rasas." When one associates with the Supreme Lord and exchanges one's constitutional rasa with the Lord, then the living being is actually happy.
   These sruti-mantras indicate that every living being has its constitutional position, which is endowed with a particular type of rasa to be exchanged with the Personality of Godhead.
 
[S.B. 1.1.3]
 
 
TRANSLATION: The merging of the living entity, along with his conditional living tendency, with the mystic lying down of the Maha-Visnu is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies.
 
PURPORT: As we have discussed several times, there are two types of living entities. Most of them are ever liberated, or nitya-muktas, while some of them are ever conditioned. The ever-conditioned souls are apt to develop a mentality of lording over the material nature, and therefore the material cosmic creation is manifested to give the ever-conditioned souls two kinds of facilities. One facility is that the conditioned soul can act according to his tendency to lord it over the cosmic manifestation, and the other facility gives the conditioned soul a chance to come back to Godhead. So after the winding up of the cosmic manifestation, most of the conditioned souls merge into the existence of the Maha-Visnu Personality of Godhead, lying in His mystic slumber, to be created again in the next creation. But some of the conditioned souls, who follow the transcendental sound in the form of Vedic literatures and are thus able to go back to Godhead, attain spiritual and original bodies after quitting the conditional gross and subtle material bodies. The material conditional bodies develop out of the living entities' forgetfulness of their relationship with Godhead, and during the course of the cosmic manifestation, the conditioned souls are given a chance to revive their original status of life with the help of revealed scriptures, so mercifully compiled by the Lord in His different incarnations. Reading or hearing of such transcendental literatures helps one become liberated even in the conditional state of material existence. All the Vedic literatures aim at devotional service to the Personality of Godhead, and as soon as one is fixed upon this point, he at once becomes liberated from conditional life. The material gross and subtle forms are simply due to the conditioned soul's ignorance and as soon as he is fixed in the devotional service of the Lord, he becomes eligible to be freed from the conditioned state. This devotional service is transcendental attraction for the Supreme on account of His being the source of all pleasing humors. Everyone is after some pleasure of humor for enjoyment, but does not know the supreme source of all attraction (raso vai sah rasam hy evayam labdhvanandi bhavati). The Vedic hymns inform everyone about the supreme source of all pleasure; the unlimited fountainhead of all pleasure is the Personality of Godhead, and one who is fortunate enough to get this information through transcendental literatures like Srimad-Bhagavatam becomes permanently liberated to occupy his proper place in the kingdom of God.
 
[S.B. 2.10.6]

 
 
Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krsna consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is constitutionally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence.
 
[B.G. 5.15]
 
 
In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, real devotional liberation is defined as the reinstatement of the living entity in his own identity, his own constitutional position. The constitutional position is already explained: every living entity is the part and parcel fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord. Therefore his constitutional position is to serve. After liberation, this service is never stopped. Actual liberation is getting free from misconceptions of life.
 
[B.G. 18.55]
 
 
 
TRANSLATION: O friends, just think of His wives, whose hands He has accepted. How they must have undergone vows, baths, fire sacrifices and perfect worship of the Lord of the universe to constantly relish now the nectar from His lips [by kissing]. The damsels of Vrajabhumi would often faint just by expecting such favors.
 
PURPORT: Religious rites prescribed in the scriptures are meant to purify the mundane qualities of the conditioned souls to enable them to be gradually promoted to the stage of rendering transcendental service unto the Supreme Lord. Attainment of this stage of pure spiritual life is the highest perfection, and this stage is called svarupa, or the factual identity of the living being. Liberation means renovation of this stage of svarupa. In that perfect stage of svarupa, the living being is established in five phases of loving service, one of which is the stage of madhurya-rasa, or the humor of conjugal love. The Lord is always perfect in Himself, and thus He has no hankering for Himself. He, however, becomes a master, a friend, a son or a husband to fulfill the intense love of the devotee concerned. Herein two classes of devotees of the Lord are mentioned in the stage of conjugal love. One is svakiya, and the other is parakiya. Both of them are in conjugal love with the Personality of Godhead Krsna. The queens at Dvaraka were svakiya, or duly married wives, but the damsels of Vraja were young friends of the Lord while He was unmarried. The Lord stayed at Vrndavana till the age of sixteen, and His friendly relations with the neighboring girls were in terms of parakiya. These girls, as well as the queens, underwent severe penances by taking vows, bathing and offering sacrifices in the fire, as prescribed in the scriptures. The rites, as they are, are not an end in themselves, nor are fruitive action, culture of knowledge or perfection in mystic powers ends in themselves. They are all means to attain to the highest stage of svarupa, to render constitutional transcendental service to the Lord. Each and every living being has his individual position in one of the above-mentioned five different kinds of reciprocating means with the Lord, and in one's pure spiritual form of svarupa the relation becomes manifest without mundane affinity. The kissing of the Lord, either by His wives or His young girl friends who aspired to have the Lord as their fiance, is not of any mundane perverted quality. Had such things been mundane, a liberated soul like Sukadeva would not have taken the trouble to relish them, nor would Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu have been inclined to participate in those subjects after renouncing worldly life. The stage is earned after many lives of penance.
 
[S.B. 1.10.28]
 
 
 
TRANSLATION: The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.
 
PURPORT: In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord--eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said, sanatanah. According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called visnu-tattva and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the visnu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are separated expansions. By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rama, Nrsimhadeva, Visnumurti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuntha planets. The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence. By misuse of that independence, one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under the engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditional life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As a result, he has to struggle very hard to maintain his existence in the material world.....
   It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face. He can hear and speak to Him face to face, and he can understand the Supreme Personality as He is. In smrti also it is understood that in the spiritual planets everyone lives in bodies featured like the Supreme Personality of Godhead's. As far as bodily construction is concerned, there is no difference between the part and parcel living entities and the expansions of visnu-murti. In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
   The word mamaivamsah (fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord) is also very significant. The fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is not like some material broken part. We have already understood in the Second Chapter that the spirit cannot be cut into pieces. This fragment is not materially conceived. It is not like matter, which can be cut into pieces and joined together again. That conception is not applicable here because the Sanskrit word sanatana (eternal) is used. The fragmental portion is eternal. It is also stated in the beginning of the Second Chapter that (dehino 'smin yatha) in each and every individual body, the fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is present. That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold.
 
[Bhagavad-gita 15.7]
 
 
TRANSLATION: In this way the conditioned soul living within the body forgets his self-interest because he identifies himself with the body. Because the body is material, his natural tendency is to be attracted by the varieties of the material world. Thus the living entity suffers the miseries of material existence.
 
PURPORT: Everyone is trying to be happy because, as explained in the previous verse, sukham asyatmano rupam sarvehoparatis tanuh: when the living entity is in his original spiritual form, he is happy by nature. There is no question of miseries for the spiritual being. As Krsna is always happy, the living entities, who are His parts and parcels, are also happy by nature, but because of being put within this material world and forgetting their eternal relationship with Krsna, they have forgotten their real nature. Because every one of us is a part of Krsna, we have a very affectionate relationship with Him, but because we have forgotten our identities and are considering the body to be the self, we are afflicted by all the troubles of birth, death, old age and disease. This misconception in materialistic life continues unless and until one comes to understand his relationship with Krsna. The happiness sought by the conditioned soul is certainly only illusion, as explained in the next verse.
 
[S.B. 7.13.28]

 
Therefore, the Lord is rarely seen by them, but the inhabitants of Dvaraka, because of their being pure devotees without any tinge of the material contamination of fruitive activities and empiric philosophical speculation, can see Him face to face by the grace of the Lord. This is the original state of the living entities and can be attained by reviving our natural and constitutional state of life, which is discovered by devotional service only.
 
[S.B. 1.11.8] 
 
 
In these four verses, Rsabhadeva tells His sons how they can be freed from the false identification arising from false ego and material conditional life. One gradually becomes liberated by practicing as mentioned above. All these prescribed methods enable one to give up the material body (lingam vyapohet) and be situated in his original spiritual body. First of all one has to accept a bona fide spiritual master. This is advocated by Srila Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu: sri-guru-padasrayah. To be freed from the entanglement of the material world, one has to approach a spiritual master.
 
[S.B. 5.5.10-13]
 
 
 
TRANSLATION: Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord.
 
PURPORT; The Lord says in Bhagavad-gita (4.9):
 
                     janma karma ca me divyam
                     evam yo vetti tattvatah
                    tyaktva deham punar janma
                     naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
 
   "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
   The result of perfection in Krsna consciousness is that after giving up one's material body, one is immediately transferred to the spiritual world in one's original spiritual body to become an associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Some devotees go to Vaikunthaloka, and others go to Goloka Vrndavana to become associates of Krsna.
 
[S.B. 6.2.43]
 
 
Hrdayananda: (translating question) He says if we practice Krsna consciousness and develop a spiritual body, is there also a... Which spirit animates the spiritual body?
Prabhupada: Yes, we'll get spiritual body. Spiritual body is already there; it is simply covered by material body. You have to cure this material body. Then you get your original, spiritual body. It is curing process. Just like one has got fever. Fever is not permanent--temporary. But cure this fever; then you healthy.
 
[Bhagavad-gita 2.14, Mexico, February 14, 1975]
 
 
 The constitutional position of a living entity, represented by Arjuna, is that he has to act according to the order of the Supreme Lord. He is meant for self-discipline. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that the actual position of the living entity is that of eternal servant of the Supreme Lord. Forgetting this principle, the living entity becomes conditioned by material nature, but in serving the Supreme Lord, he becomes the liberated servant of God. The living entity's constitutional position is to be a servitor; he has to serve either the illusory maya or the Supreme Lord. If he serves the Supreme Lord, he is in his normal condition, but if he prefers to serve the illusory external energy, then certainly he will be in bondage.
 
[B.G. 18.73]
 
 
 
5. Tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord.
 
In this section it will be clearly understood that constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy
 
 
The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna's marginal energy.
 
[S.P. Letter to: Rayarama, Los Angeles, 2 December, 1968]
 
 Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
 
[S.P. Letter to: Upendra, Tittenhurst, 27 October, 1969]

 
 
The living entities, who are residents of the spiritual as well as the material expansions, are His marginal energy (tatastha-sakti), and they are at liberty to live in either of the energies, external or internal. Those who live within the spiritual expansion of the Lord are called liberated souls, whereas the residents of the external expansion are called the conditioned souls. We can just make an estimate of the number of the residents of the internal expansions in comparison with the number of residents in the external energy and may easily conclude that the liberated souls are far more numerous than the conditioned souls.
 
[S.B. 2.6.17]
 
 
TRANSLATION: Kindly describe how the Supreme Lord, who is all-powerful, engages His different energies and different expansions in maintaining and again winding up the phenomenal world in the sporting spirit of a player.
 
PURPORT: In the Katha Upanisad (2.2.13) the Supreme Lord is described as the chief eternal being amongst all other eternal individual beings (nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam) and the one Supreme Lord who maintains innumerable other individual living beings (eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman). So all living entities, both in the conditioned state and in the liberated state, are maintained by the Almighty Supreme Lord. Such maintenance is effected by the Lord through His different expansions of Self and three principal energies, namely the internal, external and marginal energies. The living entities are His marginal energies, and some of them, in the confidence of the Lord, are entrusted with the work of creation also, as are Brahma, Marici, etc., and the acts of creation are inspired by the Lord unto them (tene brahma hrda). The external energy (maya) is also impregnated with the jivas, or conditioned souls. The unconditioned marginal potency acts in the spiritual kingdom, and the Lord, by His different plenary expansions, maintains them in different transcendental relations displayed in the spiritual sky. So the one Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests Himself in many (bahu syam), and thus all diversities are in Him, and He is in all diversities, although He is nevertheless different from all of them. That is the inconceivable mystic power of the Lord, and as such everything is simultaneously one with and different from Him by His inconceivable potencies (acintya-bhedabheda-tattva).
 
[S.B. 2.4.7]
 
 
TRANSLATION: Also, Srutadeva, Uddhava and others, Nanda, Sunanda and other leaders of liberated souls who are constant companions of the Lord are protected by Lord Balarama and Krsna. Are they all doing well in their respective functions? Do they, who are all eternally bound in friendship with us, remember our welfare?
 
PURPORT: The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.
 
[S.B. 1.14.32-33]
 
 
 
6. Independence and Falldown.
 
 
The Supreme Personality of Godhead expanded Himself into many for His ever-increasing spiritual bliss, and the living entities are parts and parcels of this spiritual bliss. They also have partial independence, but by misuse of their independence, when the service attitude is transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment, they come under the sway of lust.
 
[B.G. 3.37]
 
 
 The Lord is one without a second, and He expands Himself into many for His transcendental pleasure. All the expansions--the visnu-tattvas, the jiva-tattvas and the sakti-tattvas (the Personalities of Godhead, the living entities and the different potential energies)--are different offshoots from the same one Supreme Lord. The jiva-tattvas are separated expansions of the visnu-tattvas, and although there are potential differences between them, they are all meant for the transcendental sense gratification of the Supreme Lord. Some of the jivas, however, wanted to lord it over material nature in imitation of the lordship of the Personality of Godhead. Regarding when and why such propensities overcame the pure living entities, it can only be explained that the jiva-tattvas have infinitesimal independence and that due to misuse of this independence some of the living entities have become implicated in the conditions of cosmic creation and are therefore called nitya-baddhas, or eternally conditioned souls.
  
The expansions of Vedic wisdom also give the nitya-baddhas, the conditioned living entities, a chance to improve, and those who take advantage of such transcendental knowledge gradually regain their lost consciousness of rendering transcendental loving service to the Lord.
 
[S.B. 3.5.51]
 
 
TRANSLATION: The material ego springs up from the mahat-tattva, which evolved from the Lord's own energy. The material ego is endowed predominantly with active power of three kinds--good, passionate and ignorant. It is from these three types of material ego that the mind, the senses of perception, the organs of action, and the gross elements evolve.
 
PURPORT: In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna. This is exhibited in actual life; there are many instances in which someone acting in Krsna consciousness suddenly changes. In the Upanisads it is stated, therefore, that the path of spiritual realization is just like the sharp edge of a razor. The example is very appropriate. One shaves his cheeks with a sharp razor very nicely, but as soon as his attention is diverted from the activity, he immediately cuts his cheek because he mishandles the razor.
   Not only must one come to the stage of pure Krsna consciousness, but one must also be very careful. Any inattentiveness or carelessness may cause falldown. This falldown is due to false ego. From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. False ego is the basic principle for all material activities, which are executed in the modes of material nature. As soon as one deviates from pure Krsna consciousness, he increases his entanglement in material reaction. The entanglement of materialism is the material mind, and from this material mind, the senses and material organs become manifest.
 
[S.B. 3.26.23-24]
 
 
                           TRANSLATION
 
   The first purusa casts His glance at maya from a distance, and thus He impregnates her with the seed of life in the form of the living entities.....The reflected rays of His body mix with maya, and thus maya gives birth to myriads of universes.
 
PURPORT: The Vedic conclusion is that the cosmic manifestation visible to the eyes of the conditioned soul is caused by the Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, through the exertion of His specific energies, although in the conclusion of atheistic deliberations this manifested cosmic exhibition is attributed to material nature. The energy of the Absolute Truth is exhibited in three ways: spiritual, material and marginal. The Absolute Truth is identical with His spiritual energy. Only when contacted by the spiritual energy can the material energy work and the temporary material manifestations thus appear active. In the conditioned state the living entities of the marginal energy are a mixture of spiritual and material energies. The marginal energy is originally under the control of the spiritual energy, but, under the control of the material energy, the living entities have been wandering in forgetfulness within the material world since time immemorial.
   The conditioned state is caused by misuse of the individual independence of the spiritual platform, for this separates the living entity from the association of the spiritual energy. But when the living entity is enlightened by the grace of the Supreme Lord or His pure devotee and becomes inclined to revive his original state of loving service, he is on the most auspicious platform of eternal bliss and knowledge. The marginal jiva, or living entity, misuses his independence and becomes averse to the eternal service attitude when he independently thinks he is not energy but the energetic. This misconception of his own existence leads him to the attitude of lording it over material nature.
   Material nature appears to be just the opposite of the spiritual energy. The fact is that the material energy can work only when in contact with the spiritual energy. Originally the energy of Krsna is spiritual, but it works in diverse ways, like electrical energy, which can exhibit the functions of refrigerating or heating through its manifestations in different ways. The material energy is spiritual energy covered by a cloud of illusion, or maya. Therefore, the material energy is not self-sufficient in working. Krsna invests His spiritual energy into material energy, and then it can act, just as iron can act like fire after being heated by fire. The material energy can act only when empowered by the spiritual energy.
   When covered by the cloud of material energy, the living entity, who is also a spiritual energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, forgets about the activities of the spiritual energy and considers all that happens in the material manifestation to be wonderful. But a person who is engaged in devotional service in full Krsna consciousness and who is therefore already situated in the spiritual energy can understand that the material energy has no independent powers: whatever actions are going on are due to the help of the spiritual energy. The material energy, which is a perverted form of the spiritual energy, presents everything pervertedly, thus causing misconceptions and duality. Material scientists and philosophers conditioned by the spell of material nature suppose that material energy acts automatically, and therefore they are frustrated, like an illusioned person who tries to get milk from the nipplelike bunches of skin on the neck of a goat. As there is no possibility of getting milk from these bunches of skin, there is similarly no possibility that anyone will be successful in understanding the original cause of creation by forwarding theories produced by the material energy. Such an attempt is a manifestation of ignorance.
   The material energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called maya, or illusion, because in two capacities (by supplying the material elements and by causing the material manifestation) it makes the conditioned soul unable to understand the real truth of creation. When a living entity is liberated, however, from the conditioned life of matter, he can understand the two different activities of material nature, namely covering and bewildering.
   The origin of creation is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (9.10), the cosmic manifestation is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord, who invests the material energy with three material qualities. Agitated by these qualities, the elements supplied by the material energy produce varieties of things, just as an artist produces varieties of pictures by mixing the three colors red, yellow and blue. Yellow represents the quality of goodness, red represents passion, and blue represents ignorance. Therefore the colorful material creation is but an interaction of these three qualities, represented in eighty-one varieties of mixtures (3  x  3 equaling 9, 9  x  9 thus equaling 81). Deluded by material energy, the conditioned soul, enamored by these eighty-one varieties of manifestation, wants to lord it over material energy, just as a moth wants to enjoy a fire. This illusion is the net result of the conditioned soul's forgetfulness of his eternal relationship with the Supreme personality of Godhead. When conditioned, the soul is impelled by the material energy to engage in sense gratification, whereas one enlightened by the spiritual energy engages himself in the service of the Supreme Lord in his eternal relationship.
   Krsna is the original cause of the spiritual world, and He is the covered cause of the material manifestation. He is also the original cause of the marginal potency, the living entities. He is both the leader and maintainer of the living entities, who are called the marginal potency because they can act under the protection of the spiritual energy or under the cover of the material energy. With the help of the spiritual energy we can understand that independence is visible only in Krsna, who by His inconceivable energy is able to act in any way He likes.
   The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Absolute Whole, and the living entities are parts of the Absolute Whole. This relationship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the living entities is eternal. One should never mistakenly think that the spiritual whole can be divided into small parts by the small material energy. The Bhagavad-gita does not support this Mayavada theory. Rather, it clearly states that the living entities are eternally small fragments of the supreme spiritual whole. As a part can never be equal with the whole, so a living entity, as a minute fragment of the spiritual whole, cannot be equal at any time to the Supreme Whole, the absolute Personality of Godhead. Although the Supreme Lord and the living entities are quantitatively related as the whole and the parts, the parts are nevertheless qualitatively one with the whole. Thus the living entities, although always qualitatively one with the Supreme Lord, are in a relative position. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the controller of everything, and the living entities are always controlled, either by the spiritual energy or by the material energy. Therefore a living entity can never become the controller of material or spiritual energies. The natural position of the living being is always as a subordinate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When one agrees to act in such a position, he attains perfection in life, but if one rebels against this principle, he is in the conditioned state.
 
[C.C. Adi 5.65-66]
 
 
TRANSLATION: "Now that I have brought him here, I am asking him to leave. Now he can go wherever he likes, for I am no longer responsible for him."
 
PURPORT: Kala Krsnadasa was influenced and allured by nomads or gypsies, who enticed him with women. Maya is so strong that Kala Krsnadasa left Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's company to join gypsy women. Even though a person may associate with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he can be allured by maya and leave the Lord's company due to his slight independence. Only one who is overwhelmed by maya can be so unfortunate as to leave Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's company, yet unless one is very conscientious, the influence of maya can drag one away, even though he be the personal assistant of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And what to speak of others? The Bhattatharis used to increase their numbers by using women to allure outsiders. This is factual evidence showing that it is possible at any time to fall down from the Lord's association. One need only misuse his little independence. Once fallen and separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead's association, one becomes a candidate for suffering in the material world. Although rejected by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Kala Krsnadasa was given another chance, as the following verses relate.
 
[C.C. Mad Lila 10.65]
 
 
Karandhara: "Anjasa--completely. Translation: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working."
Prabhupada: So, purport?
Karandhara: "Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind."
Prabhupada: It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that "How the living entity was with Krsna, he became fallen in this material world?" Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that "How the living entity who was with Krsna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?" So this is the answer. Read the translation.
Karandhara: "Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O king, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead..."
Prabhupada: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, "I am fallen. I am material." That is the reason. He is thinking, "I am this body." Actually the body has no connection with me. That is experienced, that the body has no connection with the soul. The body is changing, dying. But I am the same. The same example, the moon: The cloud is passing over in different way. The moon is far away from the cloud, and it has nothing to do with the cloud, but it appears the moon is moving. (break) Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-mayam rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That's all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us.
 
[Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.1, Tokyo, April 20, 1972]
 
 
My Dear Uttama Sloka,
   Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to receive your letter (undated), and I have noted the contents that you had left the temple but now you have returned again. This is most encouraging, because it means that Krishna is very kind upon you. Although you left Him, He did not allow you to go away. It is His special favor upon you. As individuals there may be disagreement sometimes, but that is quite natural. Even in ordinary family affairs there is sometimes disagreement, but that does not mean immediately the disagreeing members shall leave the family. Similarly our Krishna Consciousness Movement means we are all gathering together in families of Krishna. Actually we are eternal family members of the Lord, but due to our misuse of independence we have now forgotten our eternal relationship with Krishna, exactly like a man who is mad forgets his family relationship and loiters in the street. But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna's family. So we are trying to establish a replica of Krishna's family in this material world wherein there is no material activities.
 
[S.P. Letter to: Uttamasloka, New Vrindaban, 7 June, 1969]
 
 
Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.
 
[S.P. Letter to: Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 27 February, 1970]
 
 
 Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.
   Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions.
 
[S.P. Letter to: Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970]
 
 
Cyavana: If God's energy is so perfect, then how does this ignorance come upon the living entity?
Prabhupada: That we have explained many times. You create your ignorance. Just like you cannot live without serving Krsna, but you create: "Why not independently?" That is your ignorance. By law, by nature's law, you cannot live without being subordinate to Krsna. But why you are thinking, "Why shall I be subordinate to Krsna?" Krsna is asking you, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam. Why you are not doing that? Why you are not doing that? Krsna is personally asking, "You do this. I shall save you." Why you are not doing this? So you violate the laws of Krsna. You suffer. That's all.
Cyavana: But if that energy is perfect, how can it violate?
Prabhupada: Then you do not know what is living being. Living being has got the, I mean to say, independence, little independence. He can obey; he can violate. In our society there are so many. Somebody is strictly obeying, somebody is willfully, voluntary..., not voluntarily, willfully violating. They must fall down.
Jnana: If God is perfect, why didn't He make us perfect?
Prabhupada: He is made perfect, but He is not... You are not stone. God is not stone. You are living being. The same thing you are repeatedly asking. You have got little independence because you are part and parcel of God. So by misusing your independence, if you violate the orders of God, then you suffer. You are perfect because you have got independence, but you misuse that perfectness. That is your fault. You perfect. You become imperfect by misusing.
Jnana: Independence?
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is perfect. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate, purnat purnam udacyate. Because you are part and parcel of God, you are perfect, but willfully you become imperfect. Again you become perfect; then you become imperfect.
Jnana: Where does that will come from?
Prabhupada: Will is given to you. Living being means there is will--thinking, feeling and willing. Don't question if you do not know. Everything comes from God. What is the use of "Where will comes?" Janmadya asya yatah. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam... Everything is coming from Krsna. Krsna has got will; you have got will. Why do you ask? This is foolishness. Krsna has got independence; you have got independence. You are a small Krsna. A particle of gold is also gold. Everything is there. All chemical composition is there. It has come from Krsna. Why you are asking wherefrom it comes?
Jnana: All living beings are independent, but some choose to serve and some choose to disbelieve.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is use of independence. Otherwise what is the meaning of independence? The meaning of independence is: "If I like, I can do. If I do not like, I do not do." That is independence. That means independence. If you are stereotyped, forced to do, that is not independence. Independence means if you like, you can do it, if not--you don't like--don't do it. That is independence. So misued independence means ignorance. He does not know that "If I infect this virus of this disease I'll suffer." But he does not know, ignorance. So he infects and he suffers.
Devotee (6): Srila Prabhupada, I was noticing your Srimad-Bhagavatams the other day and Caitanya-caritamrta. So I would like to take my time this time and offer my obeisances for such perfected, exalted work from such an exalted personality. All glories to you.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (devotees offer obeisances) Thank you very much.
Devotee (6): I haven't seen anything so beautiful, so transcendental.
Prabhupada: Try to understand. Make your life successful.
Devotee (6): I will with your mercy, with your grace. I need help.
Prabhupada: That is my endeavor. I am trying to put things how people will understand and they become perfect. That is my endeavor, humble endeavor. That's all.
Jnana: Thank you very much, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
 
[S.P. Morning Walk,  November 1, 1975, Nairobi]

 
 
7. If he desires, he can come again. That option is always there.
 
One of the main arguments that Narayana Maharaja and his followers present to support their speculation that the living entities were never with Krishna in Goloka Vrndavana or the Vaikutha planets is as follows:
 
[Narayana Maharaja]: Srila Swami Maharaja never said that the jivas fell from Goloka, some of his disciples try to prove that he has said the opposite. But I know the truth. He has told me, and it is also in sastra. Srimati Syamarani dasi has collected so many of Srila Swami Maharaja words, confirming that he never accepted that the jivas came from Goloka Vrndavana.
 
na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6)
 
[Narayana Maharaja]: Goloka is such a dhama that there is no maya. Rather, only Yogamaya is there. A person who is seriously chanting, remembering and following, passes through the stages of sraddha, nistha, ruci, asakti, and prema, after a long, long, long time. If he has gone to Goloka Vrndavana Dhama and is serving Krsna, there is no chance at all to fall down. There is no example at all in the Vedas, Upanisads, or any other scriptures.... It would be quite absurd to think that liberated souls in Goloka Vrndavana can ever be covered by maya. You should have strong faith that the jivas did not fall from there. They have come from the marginal point. They have come from Karanabdhisayi Visnu and from tatastha-sakti. Jiva himself is tatastha-sakti.
 
Note: These points will be shown to be completely false by the statements of Srila Prabhupada below.  If we return to Goloka Vrndavana we are not forced to return here again in the cycle of birth and death neither will we fall like the impersonalists who are not tasting the bliss of personal variety. But we will retain our free will and if we desire, we can come again into the material world. That option is always there.
 
 
Devotee (3): (break) You had said on a... earlier on a morning walk, on a tape, that if one enters into the spiritual world that--you were asked that he will never have to return--and you said that if it's a desire, he can return to the material world.
Prabhupada: So what is your objection?
Devotee (3): I was just wondering if the spirit soul being in the spiritual world is eternally liberated, how can he return. By desire?
Prabhupada: Yes. If he desires, he can come again. That option is always there. Just like I remain in India. I come here. And if I like, I may not come. It is my option.
Ambarisa: When we get to the spiritual sky, we'll always be able to remember how horrible it is down here? We'll always be able to remember how terrible it is in the material world?
Prabhupada: It is terrible.
Ambarisa: Yes, we will be able to remember that.
Prabhupada: That is intelligence. When one remembers that this world is duhkhalayam asasvatam, is a place of misery, then we can go. As long as we shall think, "Oh, it is very nice place," we have to remain. Krsna is so kind, "All right, remain in this very nice place."
 
[S.P. Morning Walk, July 3, 1975, Denver]

 
 
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Krsna, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa:
So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That's all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."
 
[S.P. Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles]
 
 
Acyutananda: In Andhra, I said, "There's so much land where they're growing tobacco. You could grow food." But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.
 
[S.P.Morning Walk, February 19, 1976, Mayapura]
 
 
Bhaktijana: Did Krsna create us for to serve Him?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhaktijana: Did Krsna create us to serve Him?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhaktijana: And to enjoy us?
Prabhupada: Yes. Very nice. So we should prepare ourselves to our healthy condition. That is our healthy condition. As soon as we understand that Krsna created us... Krsna created... There is no creation. Just like if I say that my hand is created, no, it is not created. As long as the body is there, the hand is there. Otherwise, there is no meaning of body. Similarly, we are not created. Krsna is always there; we are also always there. And there are millions and millions of liberated souls who are engaged in Krsna. They never misuse their independence. And we small quantity, we misused our independence. We wanted to enjoy separately. Therefore we are conditioned.
Bhaktijana: But there are, there are many...?
Prabhupada: ...liberated souls. They are never conditioned. They never become conditioned. Yes?
Devotee: You mean they never were conditioned at any time or...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: You said there were millions of souls...
Prabhupada: Yes. They were never conditioned. They were never conditioned, never conditioned. They are called nitya-mukta, eternally liberated. We are only simple few, this material world. Just like I have several times told you that the prison house. The population of prison house is nothing in comparison to the whole population. What is there? Suppose in New York there is a prison house. Oh, what may be the number? A few thousand maybe. But here, millions. Similarly, the liberated souls are millions; we are only few thousands, or hundreds. Ekamsena sthito jagat. We are thinking this universe is very great. It is nothing in comparison to the whole creation of the Lord. You are seeing only universe, but there are millions of universes like this. All together, they are ekamsena sthito jagat. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. This is only a part of Krsna's creation. One devotee of Lord Krsna, er, Lord Caitanya, requested, "My dear Lord, You have come to deliver all the fallen souls. You please take all the conditioned souls of this universe, and if You think they are not competent, they are sinful, You can give me all the sin to me. I shall suffer for them, but You kindly take." So this is the desire of a pure devotee, that "All may go with Krsna. Let them become liberated. I shall suffer all their..." Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied that "Suppose I keep your request. I take these, all the living entities of this universe. Do you think, is there any loss of this material world? It is just like a one mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds." So this universe is just like one mustard seed in one big bag of mustard seeds. Can you count how many mustard seeds are there in a big bag? So the idea was that Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied that "Even this universe is delivered fully, oh, there is a big bag of mustard seeds. It is only one grain." There are so many conditioned souls, and these conditioned souls are only insignificant in comparison to the liberated souls. Just imagine what is the quantity of liberated souls.
Bhaktijana: How could we make a poor choice if we were part and parcel of Krsna? How could we have chosen the material world?
Prabhupada: Oh, because you have got independence. Don't you see so many students come. They go away again. Yesterday Kirtanananda went to call Ranchora. He said, "Oh, I have forgotten this!" So you can forget. There is another student. He was also our student, Wally. "Oh, you can go immediately!" Suppose if you... "Oh, I don't care for this Krsna consciousness Society. Who calls you? You can go." That independence is there. We can misuse.
Bhaktijana: But Krsna will always be there if we want to go back?
Prabhupada: Eh? Krsna is always prepared to accept you. He's always prepared. But because He has given us independence, we misuse it and we fall under the clutches of maya. That is our misfortune. We create this misfortune, and we can create our good fortune. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So if you become Krsna conscious, it is to your good fortune. If you become maya conscious, it is to your bad fortune. You are the creator.
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service.
Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, "Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man," I'll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I'll never become. So if one is intelligent enough, if he has got actually the bitter taste of this material world, he'll never agree. He'll never agree. But those who have not advanced to such knowledge, oh, they think, "Oh, this material enjoyment is very nice. Let me taste it and let me do business in my sannyasi life, and stealthily and privately, let me enjoy." These things are going on. That means they have no taste. They come to hospital-making or this philanthropy. This come again. Sthanad bhrastad patanty adhah. Ye 'nye aravindaksa vimukta-maninah. "Those fools who are thinking that 'Simply by thinking myself, "I am God, I am Brahman, I have become liberated," ' " but ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavat, "but there is no knowledge about You, Krsna," aruhya krcchrena param padam, "they, after performing so much austerity and penances, they rise up to the highest position, Brahman realization, but," patanty adhah, "they fall down." We have got so many instances. They take sannyasa. They say that brahma satyam jagan mithya: "This world is false. Brahman is truth." But after some days, they come to politics, they come to sociology, they come to hospital, they come to this and that. That's all. Finished. Brahman finished. Patanty adhah. They must fall down because they have no shelter in Krsna. Just like the sputnik goes very high, clap, hear clap. Uh, come down again. Where you'll go? Yes. Simply for the time being clapping, that's all. (laughs) But the fools, they are so nonsense, they are satisfied with that temporary clapping. That's all.
Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated?
Prabhupada: That you know. I do not know.
Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated...
Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don't you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krsna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krsna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krsna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadam. (end)
 
[Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lecture, Adi-lila 7.108, San Francisco, February 18, 1967]
 
 
Syamasundara: But can we predict, can we tell in advance what there will be, what is the future?
Prabhupada: The future is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the ultimate future. But because he's not intelligent, he has to be kicked on his face very strongly by the (indistinct). That is the foolish man. And if one is intelligent, he can tell immediately, "Oh, my duty is to serve Krsna." That's all. "Why I am trying to serve my senses?" But to come to this platform, this understanding that "I am eternal servant of God. My business is to serve Krsna," it requires (indistinct); therefore the maya is there. Just like police force. The police force is there after the criminal, just to teach him that "You cannot (indistinct) the laws of the state. When you are under our supervision, and we shall simply kick on your face, that is our business." So maya is always kicking on the face, and (s)he is creating varieties, that's all. This is called conditional life.
Syamasundara: So that much is predictable, that for...
Prabhupada: You can see it is not predictable, it is actually happening. Everyone is trying to be happy, but he is being frustrated. Everyone can see. They are manufacturing different ways of material happiness but becoming frustrated. This is maya's kicking. There is no question of prediction. Any man who has got a little intelligence, he can see.
Syamasundara: So someone can understand, someone can know what the life force is going to do in the future, how it will manifest itself in the future?
Prabhupada: The future, because he is eternally servant of God, so now he has forgotten. He wants to become master, and the material nature is kicking him, life after life. So one day he'll come to his senses and become again, renovate himself to become servant of God.
Syamasundara: So we can predict that everyone will...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Everyone will be. Somebody sooner, somebody later.
Syamasundara: So that the purpose of the life force then is to eventually go back...
Prabhupada: Just like when a man becomes a prisoner, he will be freed, he'll be a free man at the end of his term, and within this term he is simply kicked by the police, so that he may not come back again to prison house.
Syamasundara: But we can't predict that the process of punishment will have permanent effect, can we? Can we predict that? Many prisoners leave the prison, but some come back.
Prabhupada: No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing as permanent. You can misuse your independence at any time.
Syamasundara: And come back.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Syamasundara: His conception of the soul, which he calls elan vital in French language, means the vital impulse.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vital..., this is living force, vital force. (indistinct), it is never addressed. God has (indistinct) for the mind, for the intelligence, for the body, God has (indistinct).
Syamasundara: Is it (indistinct) in the same quantity in every body, in every living body?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Same quantity. The same measurement: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.
Syamasundara: I mean the energy, the amount of energy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That much, that spiritual energy is everywhere, in the ant or in the elephant.
Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada, you mentioned the size of the soul, and this size seems to connote a physical size. Now, my question is: in the spiritual world, size, it seems that it is a material concept, it is a relative thing, distance...
Prabhupada: Material size and spiritual size is not the same. Spiritual size is permanent; material size is changing.
Atreya Rsi: In other words, how could you measure the spiritual phenomenon with something like one-thousandth of the tip of the hair? Hair is material.
Prabhupada: No. Because you have no spiritual vision, therefore you have to be understood by material example.
Atreya Rsi: That's an example.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: And also Syamasundara Prabhu was asking about predicting about spiritual life. What is the qualification of the person who can make such predictions?
Prabhupada: He must be Krsna's representative, one who knows Krsna. That's all.
Atreya Rsi: No one else.
Prabhupada: No. If he does not know Krsna, how he can explain?
Devotee: That independence, if he exercises that independence from now on, forever, Krsna knows exactly how that independence is going to be used forever?
Prabhupada: Krsna?
Devotee: Well, the living entity has independence: now he may be liberated, then he may be conditioned, then he may be liberated, then he may be conditioned.
Prabhupada: No. Krsna has given you liberation. Now you misuse your liberation, you become entrapped.
Syamasundara: But it is that predictable?
Devotee: Is that known beforehand?
Syamasundara: Does Krsna know beforehand everything, before...?
Prabhupada: No. How Krsna can know? You can change your mind. So Krsna says "Surrender unto Me." If you don't surrender, then what Krsna can do? That much independence is there.
Syamasundara: So even God cannot predict?
Prabhupada: What is the use of prediction? Prediction is so much, that he will be kicked, kicked, kicked, and some day he will come.
Devotee: But the independence...
Prabhupada: Independence is there. Independence is always there. When he is being kicked, there is also independence.
Devotee: Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, eventually permanently he will come back.
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of permanent. Because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why one man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently he... He can come back again.
Syamasundara: There's no guarantee.
Atreya Rsi: This concept of prediction, Prabhupada. You just said it's the duty of the material (indistinct) because he's (indistinct) material. Because he's not sure and...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) by experience (indistinct). Just like  you can predict that four months after, there will be winter season. This prediction is like that. You have got experience that last year there was winter season, and again four months after there will be winter season. We call this prediction of experience, that's all.
Atreya Rsi: In the spiritual world everything is permanent.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: There is no need for making predictions all the time.
Prabhupada: No. Why there is? Prediction means when there is something wanting. There is no want at all.
Devotee: Once he's liberated, can he (indistinct)?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: (indistinct) Krsna conscious (indistinct)
Prabhupada: No. That is the general law. But if he likes, he can come back. Because otherwise, what is the meaning of independence? Just like one should become fit in the prison house, naturally he should not go again. But (indistinct) running again kicking, that's all.
Lilavati: So those eternally liberated souls in the spiritual sky will never come here because they choose not to. It's not that... (indistinct) they never choose to come here.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. They never choose. They are very experienced. (laughter)
 
[Philosophy Discussions, Henri Bergson]